Question Is it true that nothing can be compared to the Holocaust?

[Hayseed]

I was reading a political article and the author was comparing the MAGA movement to the Nazi movement.

A dissenting commenter noting some statistics argued that nothing in history can be compared to the Holocaust.

Is that really true? What about the Soviet purges? And the Soviet famines? What are those death counts? What about the Chinese purges? The Southeast Asia purges......what are those death counts?

I have read much higher death counts for these events. I don't study these kinds of things, maybe someone here knows the facts of the matter.

Anyone here familiar with these "holocaust" histories?

If the covid virus was man made, would the 6+ million that have died so far, be a accidental holocaust?

Maybe I mis-understand the meaning of "holocaust". Is it the number of dead, ...or the manner and intent of the aggressor, that defines the word?

Would the millions murdered in Asia recognize the difference?

Or am I totally wrong on these death counts? And nothing can be compared to the Holocaust?

 

[Hartmann352]

Hayseed -

I studied modern German history with a minor in German language for my undergrad degree.

The difference between the Holocaust and the Soviet gulag system is the mechanization of the modern state, Germany, which was dedicated and harnessed solely to murder.

Concerning the gulag system, I recommend Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago, which demonstrates that the gulags of all types were designed first and foremost as a labor system, regardless of how destructive it was.

For instance, The White Sea Canal was built with zhek labor who were only issued hand tools to construct it. Only one ship ever traversed it, Stalin's, for its opening. And even then it had to be specially constructed with a shallow draft due to the minimal depth of the hand constructed waterway.

The Nazis, on the other hand, established, operated and later partially destroyed Auschwitz with Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka which were termed Vernichtungslager, or extermination camps, wholly designed to murder and then turn to ash vast incoming volumes of humanity. The massive amounts of generated ash at Auschwitz was dumped in the Sola River which ran near the camp.

This operation, called Aktion Reinhard after the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich of the SS in 1942 in Prague by Czech operatives, perfected over the years by individuals like Rudolf Höss, the next to the last commandant at Auschwitz. Höss was brought back from the concentration camp inspectorate by Heinrich Himmler, the Reich leader of the SS and Police, especially because of his previous success in mass murder in order to rapidly gas with Zyklon B, a cyanide derivative usually employed to fumigate and kill rats and mice, and then cremate the 438,000 Jews from Hungary.

Here are some statistics from 1944 at Auschwitz alone to give you the scale of the SS murder operation.

• 16 May – The railroad siding, which is located just inside the camp is released for use. It permits deportees to be taken from the train, selected for the gas chambers and then transported directly to Gas Chambers Nos. II and III at Auschwitz II-Birkenau. The start of deportation to Auschwitz of almost 438,000 Jews from Hungary.
• 10–12 July – Liquidation of the so-called Theresienstadt family camp. The Nazis murder about 7,000 Jews in the gas chambers.
• August – Start of deportation to Auschwitz of 67,000 Jews from the ghetto in Litzmannstadt (Łódź) in Poland.
• 2 August – Liquidation of the “family Gypsy camp” – the SS murder almost 3,000 Romanies (Gypsies) in the gas chambers.
• 12 August – Start of deportation to Auschwitz of 13,000 Poles, arrested en masse after the start of the Warsaw Uprising, which was crushed by SS troops. The commander of the operation, Jürgen Stroop, had a book made about this Action, entitled Die jüdische Wohnbezirk in Warschau ist kein mehr - The Jewish living quarters in Warsaw is no more.

Operations at Auschwitz ceased in November of 1944 as the Red Army approached Silesia where the camps, Auschwitz, Auschwitz II - Birkenau and Auschwitz III - Monowitz, were located.

Of the 1.3 million deportees who arrived at Auschwitz, 1.1 million, or some 85%, were murdered shortly after their arrival, often within an hour or two.

Read the following, in any order you please, in an attempt to grasp the scope, scale and management of this murder of men, women and children:

books by Primo Levi.
The War Against the Jews by Lucy Dawidowicz
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William R. Shirer - particularly the section captioned "The New Order"
Twelve books selected about the Holocaust: https://www.panmacmillan.com/blogs/history/the-best-books-about-the-holocaust
Another 12 books on the Holocaust: https://www.rd.com/article/holocaust-books/
The trial documents on Adolf Eichmann
The Holocaust: The Jewish Tragedy by Martin Gilbert
The Master of Auschwitz: Memoirs of Rudolf Höss
Books on Josef Mengele - https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/josef-mengele
The Theory and Practice of Hell by Eugen Kogon
The SS: Alibi of a Nation by Gerald Reitlinger
The Waffen SS by George Stein
Soldiers of Destruction by Brian Sydnor

There are two motion pictures I urge you to see: Shoah directed by Claude Lanzman, which covers the Holocaust in nine hours, and Conspiracy with Kenneth Branagh, which explains The Wannsee Conference in January of 1942, which established the elements and the coordination for solving the "Jewish question" in occupied Europe.

I was fortunate enough to have directed studies with visiting professors Carole Fink of The Ohio University and George Stein of Cornell while I was studying German history at SUNY Binghamton. My undergrad advisor and thesis director was Prof. Dr. Dietrich Orlow at Boston University, who has written extensively on the Nazi Party.

If I may answer any questions or direct you to sources, feel free to ask.

Hartmann352

 

[Hayseed]

Most older folks know the Nazi stats. My question is was that the worse history of murder? Does the word holocaust have a special meaning? Is it a holocaust because of number? Or manner? Or motive? Or victim identity? Or does holocaust mean Germany did it?

How many lives did Stalin kill and starve? What was the death count of WWII Japan? What about China and Cambodia political purgings?

The "Jews" are only one tribe of Israel. There are 11 more tribes of Israel. People guess but no one knows who or where they are. Or their habits and traditions. Judah is only 1/12 of Israel. 1/12 of a race or people. However, the lost tribes will have common DNA with Judah. A way to identify them. A fine research project. A solvable puzzle. It will not be easy.

It may have always been brother against brother.

Just one other point. In WWII, Germany slaughtered Jews, Japan slaughtered everybody.

The hatred for the "Japs" was much stronger than the Germans. Without the Jap camps, many American Japs would have been murdered. Today with modern delusional study......they call this a war crime! And of course we all know the beatings, rape, murder, slavery and starvation that took place in those interment camps. We'll never live it down. Such shame!

Covid is close to 7 million deaths so far. If it turns out that the virus is man-made, will that make it a holocaust?

It's funny how the value of life changes. In the early 70s after 10 years and losing 50k young lives in Asia, everyone screamed to stop the tragedy. And abortion was illegal. Today we have 80-100k young die every year with drugs, unlimited abortion in many states, and I hear no screaming.

We are devolving. And the modern pastime is judging other people. It's very sick.

 

[Hartmann352]

Hayseed -

To fully understand the breadth and scope of the years 1922-1953, takes a lot of dedicated reading and study.

You ask about many issues, all of which can be gleaned from reading lists involved in each area mentioned.

Both the war in the East, that fought in Soviet Russia, Ukraine, Byelorussia, etc., and that fought by the US in the Pacific, were racial wars in addition to being the response to clear threats which impinged on the future of the nation states involved.

The war in Soviet Russia covered the murder of the Jews in the occupied areas. But it also resulted in the deaths of over 30 million Russians, all of whom were classified as Untermensch, or subhumans, and ran the gamut from peasants to Red Army soldiers.

The Nazis killed hostages, those in reprisal raids, due to forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, politruks, in terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, where overall the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people, most likely 20,946,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, and many others. There were 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age. And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths related to offensive and defensive warfare.

The Holocaust, from my studies, arises from the sheer rapidity of the murder of the Jews once it began in the East on June 22, 1941, which offered a cover for this increasing murder, with initial advances allowing the Einsatzgruppen to effect" the Holocaust by bullets," killing some 1.2 million people inside Soviet Russia with bullets alone.

On the other side of the coin, being two of the most blood thirsty dictators in history, Hitler's party ruled from January of 1933 to May of 1945, a mere 12 years, whereas Stalin ruled, singularly, from 1922, following the incapacitation of Lenin, to his death in 1953, a reign of 31 years.

I suggest, in closing for the last time, that if you are truly interested in this areas and wish to understand them - read the books I mentioned before, take a few college courses with directed studies in the area of the holocaust, Hitler and Stalin, racial war, WWII, the Treaty of Versailles, Weimar Republic, history of the German police, major Nazi figures and their ties to mass murder, the Nazification of the Wehrmacht, explore both the NS and the SS states, Nazi economic policy and Max Heiliger. The refinements in historiography are endless.

Hartmann352

 

[Mohammad Ahmad Naz]

I was reading a political article and the author was comparing the MAGA movement to the Nazi movement.

A dissenting commenter noting some statistics argued that nothing in history can be compared to the Holocaust.

Is that really true? What about the Soviet purges? And the Soviet famines? What are those death counts? What about the Chinese purges? The Southeast Asia purges......what are those death counts?

I have read much higher death counts for these events. I don't study these kinds of things, maybe someone here knows the facts of the matter.

Anyone here familiar with these "holocaust" histories?

If the covid virus was manufactured, would the 6+ million that have died so far, be an accidental holocaust?

Maybe I misunderstood the meaning of "holocaust". Is it the number of dead, ...or the manner and intent of the aggressor, who defines the word?

Would the millions murdered in Asia recognize the difference?

Or am I totally wrong on these death counts? And nothing can be compared to the Holocaust.

 

[Mohammad Ahmad Naz]

Holocaust is a myth, a Zionist Propaganda as the Iranian president said. or as Noel coward said, Lies, Lies and lies and statistics to gain sympathy. there are more Holocausts in the World. thus, Zionist propaganda. for example, the Palestinian massacre and genocide in Palestine. West Bank of Palestine.

 

[Hartmann352]

The key elements which separates the Holocaust, between 1938-1945, is the harnessing of the modern industrial state, through the use of trains, troops, Hollerith punch cards, Zyklon B (pronounced like cyclone), selections on the arrival ramp of the few to live and those to be murdered done by trained physicians operating for the health of the German volk, for the total elimination of entire groups - Jews identified by their wearing the yellow Star of David, gypsies, mentally ill and those with chronic problems with addiction like alcoholism, homosexuals, captured Soviet POWs, clerics, Jehovah's Witnesses, nationalists - through industrialised murder.

The Holocaust by bullets is the history of the Einsatzgruppen, the SS/SD mobile commandos who followed the three German army groups and were directed to shoot Soviet Red Army politruks, Jews, nationalists and anyone posing a threat to the rear areas. There was no need for trials, the victims were rounded up and shot in large numbers in areas like Ponary, Babi Yar, Rumbula Forest, the ninth fort at Kovno. Sometimes the mere presence of German troops in the vicinity was sufficient to for a massacre and Wehrmacht troops, signals battalions and German police units often performed this task. The Einsatzgruppen, led by lawyers and economists represented the educated elite of the Nazi SS and the SD or the Security Service. The Einsatzgruppen A, B, C and D and fifth Einsatzgruppen "for special employment" killed approximately 1.5 million people by bullets.

The Soviet gulag system did not operate gas chambers with attached crematoria for the murder of entire peoples. They, on the other hand, adopted a callous disregard towards the prisoners, the zeks, as they built canals, felled trees, railroad lines, worked in lead and uranium mines, etc. all with hand tools resulting from the needs for machinery in the factories and in the kolkhozes, the vast collective farms.

For a start, kindly read:

The Empire of Destruction by Alex J. Kay
The Gulag Archipelago by Alexandr Solzhenitsyn
The SS: Alibi of a Nation by Gerald Reitlinger
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer, especially the chapter captioned: The New Order
Ordinary Men: Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland by Christopher Browning
Heydrich by Gunther Deschner
The Holocaust by Bullets: A Priest's Journey to Uncover the Truth Behind the Murder of 1.5 Million Jews by Father Patrick Desbois
Female SS Guards and Workaday Violence by Wendy Lower
Stalin by Adam Ulam

Look into these personalities: Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, Artur Nebe, Otto Ohlendorf, Theodor Eicke, Karl Adolf Eichmann, Rudolf Höss.

On the Soviet side, examine the NKVD leaders: Yezhov, Yegorov and Beria.
Look into Stalin, Voroshilov

These are two vast areas of writing and investigation to delve into. But no one has ever adopted sheer industrial murder on a scale like the Nazis did, from homes to ghettos to the extermination camps like Auschwitz-Birkenau, Sobibor, Chelmno, Treblinka, Majdanek-Lublin and Belzec.

Hartmann352

 

[Hartmann352]

Here's my final comment on the Holocaust:

The Holocaust differs from other genocides in recent history for one main reason: there is no other example in which a minority was systematically annihilated and as completely as possible on the orders of a head of state and through the apparatus of a modern industrial state. To reconstruct Hitler’s central role in the Final Solution represents a particular challenge. Hitler treated the murder of the Jews as a matter of the utmost secrecy and was careful wherever possible not to leave behind any written orders, relying on subordinates like Göring, Himmler, Heydrich, and camp commanders like Rudolf Höss. Wherever Hitler's instructions on this matter are recorded he has used codified language like resettlement, evacuation to the East, final solution and cleansing. He kept away from the implementation of the orders and feigned ignorance, to his closest friends and colleagues, until his suicide.

As an example of Heinrich Himmler's complicity and that of the SS senior leadership, investigate Himmler's speech in Posen (Poznan), Poland.

See: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/himmler-s-posen-speech-quot-extermination-quot

See: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/german-railways-and-the-holocaust

See: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...ust-remembrance-day-photos-auschwitz-birkenau

Hartmann352