3)
In the context of this study, shared by
@vedhogger, the IV vitamin C they're describing as "high-dose" is only a 50-200mg dose, which seems in line with standard vitamin C supplementation. In addition, In addition, this treatment appears to be recommended only for people with mild symptoms (assuming my Chinese to English translator is accurate). In other words, in this context, it seems as though the treatment team is ensuring that patients receive enough vitamin C to maintain normal immune function.
In these 2 studies regarding using IVC Therapy to assist in treating 'septic shock' caused by pneumonia, which Alpha A. "Berry" Fowler, III, M.D. is lecturing on, by "high dose" they mean 200mg/kg (of body weight)/24hr period. So, if you weigh 150lbs, that's 68kg x 200mg = 13,600mg IN 24 HOURS, not 200mg/24h.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXs5Xzr6qCI
It doesn't seem that you comprehend the studies because you state this: "[What] they're describing as "high-dose" is only a 50-200mg dose, which seems in line with standard vitamin C supplementation."
That is NOT what any of the papers I have read or lectures I have watched mean by "high dose".
One thing that is noteworthy in Dr. Folwer's studies is that 'high dose' ORAL vitamin C does not increase the amount of Vitamin C in the blood as effectivly as IVC (plasma levels of ascorbic acid were only able to be elevated to high levels via IV).
Also worth a read is this paper VITAMIN C, TITRATING TO BOWEL TOLERANCE, ANASCORBEMIA, AND ACUTE INDUCED SCURVY by Robert F. Cathcart, III, M.D. hosted on-line here: http://www.doctoryourself.com/titration.html
In Dr. Cathcart's paper, "high dose" means between 15,000mg-200,000mg (15-200 grams) of Vitamin C per 24h period.
This paper is a Medical Hyphosis based on his treatments of "over 9000 patients", but you can find the Clinical Studies supporting it in the Refrence section of the paper.
What's more, if you notice on the main orthomolecular.org website, if you click "Contribute," the link will lead you to a website called the Riordan Clinic where you can buy supplements and lab tests of varying sorts. That in and of itself should raise your suspicions as to whether these articles are disseminating the best scientific information available, or are primarily aimed at trying to sell you something.
Great point about "people trying to sell you something". Seeing as how 1lb (454 grams) of crystal vitamin C is only around $20 and a single visit to the doctor is hundreds of dollars... I think that is EXACTLY why there is any bad press or smug dismissal of the use of Vitamin C as a preventative measure.
I am far more skeptical of any doctor stating that there are not proven benefits of supplemental Vitamin C.
"Vitamin C is extremely unlikely to help people fight off the new coronavirus."
That is a blatant lie.
Vitamin C is absolutely proven to HELP fight off infections... and it is highly likely it also helps prevent getting infections in the first place.
"It is well established that certain symptoms are associated with an almost total lack of vitamin C within the body. Symptoms of scurvy include lassitude, malaise, bleeding gums, loss of teeth, nosebleeds, bruising, hemorrhages in any part of the body, easy infections, poor healing of wounds, deterioration of joints, brittle and painful bones, and death, etc."
What is debatable is how helpful it can be and what doses are required for it to be helpful.
Howdy folks,
Please keep in mind that arguing with other folks on the Internet rarely comes to an amicable end, so we ask that we all consider what is being discussed in the original post.
Vitamin C is not harmful when taken. There's no question that it's a vitally important part of living as a healthy human. If you take vitamin C supplements, we're not trying to stop you.
However, there is currently no thoroughly vetted clinical testing to say that vitamin C alone will stop anyone from getting, spreading, or growing ill from the coronavirus.
To take it in the doses required for the kind of extra added protection people hope for, they need to get it intravenously. This means that most people looking to pursue this option would need to have it administered by a medical professional in a hospital or doctor's office, which is not an ideal situation during a pandemic where social distancing is needed to slow the spread.
Vitamin C is great, it's necessary, and it's even beneficial for living our daily lives, but we won't consider it a treatment until we have much more than the currently available supporting evidence.
Not true. It would only need to be taken via IV if people get really sick.
It is highly likely that:
1) Taking 1000mg-3000mg a day will ensure everyone has the max levels of Vitamin C already present in the body.
2) That if one does get ill, that increasing this amount until one reaches bowel tolerance can help diminish the symptoms and speed healing.
This article starts off:
"Vitamin C is extremely unlikely to help people fight off the new coronavirus."
That's a proven lie. It is proven that someone with scurvy is MORE susceptible to all illnesses (including the coronavirus).
True, but these studies were done in healthy young volunteers. The LPI recommendations, for example, are to maintain health - not treat disease (how do I know this? I helped write them!). We don't know what happens in people who are sick. While not the most reliable source, Robert Cathcart did show a very unusual phenomenon of increased bowel tolerance for vitamin C during illness. To my knowledge, this has never been adequately followed up in clinical trials.
Because intravenous vitamin C does allow for high amounts of the vitamin to enter the blood, it can have different effects than high supplemental doses. Intravenous vitamin C - for example - it thoughts to act as a pro-oxidant in cancer patients.
As for supplemental doses of vitamin C in pneumonia, Harri Hemilä did a
review of that topic back in 2013.
This link is recommending "vitamin C is administered at a dose of 50 to 100 mg/kg per day" for light cases and up to "100 to 200 mg/kg daily" for those experiencing a cytokine storm. If we assume that that average male weights 70-75 kg, that's talking about doses up to 15 grams per day.
However, on this point I do agree with you: a recommendation by a medical association does not mean the treatment is working.
YouTube videos do not count as evidence, nor do "press releases" by the Orthomolecular Medicine News Service
They do when the YouTube video is like this one (which shows all the evidence and describes the details of the clinical study): View: https://youtu.be/HXs5Xzr6qCI
Here is an article written by
Dr. Harri Hemilä published in
Nutrients worth looking at (a bit more substantial than one of his letters):
In the early literature, vitamin C deficiency was associated with pneumonia. After its identification, a number of studies investigated the effects of vitamin C on diverse infections. A total of 148 animal studies indicated that vitamin C may alleviate ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The 2013 paper mentioned by Alex Michels was updated in 2016:
https://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/hemila/CP/
_____
Regarding an earlier comment I made about the "nocebo effect" of the Original Post, here is a substantial review of the reality of the nocebo effect:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4804316/
From the Methods section of that review:
We conducted a review of articles relevant to the nature, mechanisms, medical management, and ethical issues of nocebo effect.
The PubMed, Pascal, Embase, Web of Science, and International Pharmaceutical Abstract databases were searched for English and French language articles published from 2003 to July 2014, using the following terms: “nocebo,” “nocebo effect,” and “nocebo effects.”
The search was extended by a manual search of the references cited in pertinent recent articles and reviews. Articles were screened for relevance based on the title, abstracts, and keywords.
Eighty‐six articles were selected and reviewed. Among them, 23 relate concrete examples of nocebo effect, 34 are about the mechanisms of the nocebo effect, 11 about the implications of nocebo effect, and 6 are considering solutions to manage it.
This article is very likely going to be a source of a nocebo effect around Vitamin C for most people who are not able to comprehend the more subtle elements of the studies that have been done, or who aren't going to take the time to look deeper because "LIVESCIENCE" is perceived as a source of 'expert opinions'.