The coronavirus did not escape from a lab. Here's how we know.

Page 12 - For the science geek in everyone, Live Science breaks down the stories behind the most interesting news and photos on the Internet.
Aug 3, 2020
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I see 2 separate theories; (1) It was created at the lab and was released. (2) It was a natural occurring virus being studied in the lab and was released. I see many providing evidence that it was not created and that if true makes theory (1) unlikely. Is there any info that refutes the possibility of theory (2) that it was a natural virus being studied in the Wuhan lab and somehow got released?
 
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adam

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I see 2 separate theories; (1) It was created at the lab and was released. (2) It was a natural occurring virus being studied in the lab and was released. I see many providing evidence that it was not created and that if true makes theory (1) unlikely. Is there any info that refutes the possibility of theory (2) that it was a natural virus being studied in the Wuhan lab and somehow got released?
Look at my previous post on covid-19 which includes more info

Watch the video interview with Prof Petrovsky an Australian virus expert who has been funded extensively over many years by the USA NIH and developed successsful vaccines for Ebola, MERSs and animal SARs.

His covid-19 vaccine research indicates covid-19 looks too well adapted to human transmission to be a natural virus and it is unusual it has no better animal host prior to arriving at the human stage.

In any event you will see he says that the way many leading researchers have said it is impossible that covid-19 to be man made or man enhanced is strange and disregards lab recombination methods that are well known and leave little or no trace of human intervention

The video interview is a good summary of the facts about covid-19

Its worth reading the text related to the youtube video interview with Prof Petrovsky (much more than is quoted below)

View:
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oiyTrJehvbU


Professor Petrovsky, who is the Chairman and Research Director of Vaxine Pty Ltd, said COVID-19 has genetic elements similar to bat coronaviruses as well as other coronaviruses.

Flinders University Professor Nikolai Petrovsky has completed a scientific study, currently undergoing peer review, in conjunction with La Trobe University in Victoria, which found COVID-19 was uniquely adapted for transmission to humans, far more than any other animal, including bats.

Professor Petrovsky, from the College of Medicine and Public Health at Flinders University who has spent the past 20 years developing vaccines against pandemic influenza, Ebola and animal SARS, said this highly unusual finding left open the possibility that the virus leaked from a laboratory.

“It was like it was designed to infect humans,” he said.

“One of the possibilities is that an animal host was infected by two coronaviruses at the same time and COVID-19 is the progeny of that interaction between the two viruses.

“The same process can happen in a petri-dish. If you have cells in culture and you have human cells in that culture which the viruses are infecting, then if there are two viruses in that dish, they can swap genetic information and you can accidentally or deliberately create a whole third new virus out of that system.

“In other words COVID-19 could have been created from that recombination event in an animal host or it could have occurred in a cell-culture experiment.”

Professor Petrovsky was originally modelling the virus in January to prepare a vaccine candidate. He then turned his attention to “explore what animal species might have been involved in the transmission to humans” to understand the origins of the virus - and had a “surprising” result when none were well-adapted.

“We found that the COVID-19 virus was particularly well-adapted to bind to human cells and that was far superior to its ability to bind to the cells of any other animal species which is quite unusual because typically when a virus is well-adapted to an animal and then it by chance crosses to a human, typically, you would expect it to have lower-binding to human cells than to the original host animal. We found the opposite so that was a big surprise,” he said.


Prof Petrovsky Paper on Covid-19 from May 2020 - Cornell


[2005.06199] In silico comparison of spike protein-ACE2 binding affinities across species; significance for the possible origin of the SARS-CoV-2 virus

 
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Aug 12, 2020
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I still will observe and wait for more information. The fact that Wuhan has a level 4 lab in place (known since the 80s) is still troubling imho. Maybe they just had the virus intact as is and were studying it. Seems coincidental to me. But hey you guys are scientists, and you're always right. And propaganda doesn't exist. Stay calm sheep.
"It is so effective at attaching to human cells that the researchers said the spike proteins were the result of natural selection and not genetic engineering."

That's totally a stupid excuse. They don't have a proper explanation, it's all cheap excuses. The attempt of convincing about it's natural creation seems ever more suspicious...
 
Aug 14, 2020
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I still will observe and wait for more information. The fact that Wuhan has a level 4 lab in place (known since the 80s) is still troubling imho. Maybe they just had the virus intact as is and were studying it. Seems coincidental to me. But hey you guys are scientists, and you're always right. And propaganda doesn't exist. Stay calm sheep.
This article is not proof - it is mere conjecture. The facts about hooks and other details do not in any way preclude manipulation by Chinese researchers, whether by selection or modification processes, in ways specifically intended to obscure the evolution of the biowarfare agent and confuse outside investigators. Why would they, if engaged in a biowarfare attack, not invest significant effort in masking their hand in preparation of the agent to be used, when it was a foregone conclusion that such investigations of the agent would ensue?

Moreover, the article is misdirected; it would not matter if the Chinese developed it or merely encountered it as a natural infectious agent. It is what was done following its discovery (there is at least one train of inquiry that suggests the first occurrence may have been in the summer of 2019, perhaps substantiated by satellite photos showing what appear to be mass graves) that matters. If it is so that summer 2019 was the first encounter, the virus may have been moved to the Wuhan lab for further analysis, from which it later inadvertently or intentionally broke out.

The KEY issue, however, is that China covered up its (possible) earlier discovery and its inadvertent(?) release from the Wuhan area, delayed notification of the world, actively suppressed information flow from the WHO, refused access by researchers from outside of China to their RNA analyses (what were they hiding?), and - key to the issue - allowed travel of infected Chinese throughout the western world, while prohibiting travel of same within China. This lattermost step is the essential evidence of a biowarfare attack intent. It illustrates knowledge of the lethality and/or contagion, while doing nothing to arrest transmission outside of Chinese borders. That combination definitively pegs China as a knowing facilitator of lethal infectious disease transfer to other countries - in other words, engaging in a biowarfare attack. No other discussion is necessary; China is guilty of attacking the West.

The motive is of no consequence to the action, although there are obvious economic and power motives, nor is the means by which the biological agent came to be known to them. The only matter with which the world must deal is the act - the act of encouraging the spread of a biowarfare agent, which did result in a world pandemic at the loss of millions of lives - an act that MUST be repudiated by that world - ideally, through removal of the Communist Party as the ruling organization of China. This attack is in no way different from Pearl Harbor or 9/11 in kind, other than the clandestine attempt to hide the attacker and avoid retribution.
 
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Unlike most of the very positive views in this thread stating that the Corona virus could not possibly have been engineered in a laboratory, I am almost certain that the Corona virus is the direct result of research done in a lab, probably by the Chinese. Here is why. Prior to 2019 when the virus made its appearance, China was hugely into bio-tech experiments. They were cloning everything from sheep to pigs. They were genetically altering all sorts of animals with very little oversight or controls. I remember seeing pigs in all colours of the rainbow. Pigs that glowed in the night. In 2019, some kind of swine flu or other disease swept through the swine population of China devastating whole herds. China also appeared to have a lot of help from the USA, although it was not at the time known to the US Government. Here is an excerpt: (Notice it takes place in wuhan!)

"Charles Leiber, who chairs the prestigious school’s Chemistry and Chemical Biology Department, was taken into custody at his office. He has been charged with one count of making a materially false, fictitious and fraudulent statement – and was set to appear Tuesday in federal court in Boston, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office of the District of Massachusetts.

“Unbeknownst to Harvard University, beginning in 2011, Lieber became a ‘Strategic Scientist’ at Wuhan University of Technology (WUT) in China and was a contractual participant in China’s Thousand Talents Plan from in or about 2012 to 2017,” a statement from the Office says."


Here is a link to the article: https://www.foxnews.com/us/harvard-university-professor-arrested

Note the term strategic scientist and from 2011 almost 10 years!
 

adam

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The NIH has been asked to resume financing the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) but asked for clarification of a number of points

The NIH letter, sent by Michael Lauer, deputy director for extramural research, said there were ‘serious bio-safety concerns’ over research at the Wuhan lab.

Lauer said funding would only be considered for restoration if outside experts could probe the Wuhan facilities and records

with specific attention to addressing…

1. whether staff had Sars-Cov-2 in their possession prior to December 2019’.

2. providing a sample of their virus used to determine the genetic code

plus answers on

3. ‘the apparent disappearance of Huang Yanling, a scientist/researcher who worked in the Wuhan Institute of Virology but whose lab web presence has been deleted’.

[The young researcher was identified on social media as Patient Zero soon after the virus erupted in Wuhan. The institute denied she had come to any harm, insisting she had completed her studies and moved to another part of China.]

Other conditions for funding restoration in Lauer’s letter, according to a tweet by Daszak, sought


4. explanations for a series of ‘out- of-ordinary restrictions’ on the lab’s facilities in mid-October that included ‘diminished cell phone traffic’ and roadblocks.

Lauer also said the agency needed to know why the Wuhan Institute

5. ‘failed to note that the RaTG13 virus, the bat-derived coronavirus in its collection with greatest similarity to Sars-Cov-2, was actually isolated from an abandoned mine where three men died in 2012 with an illness remarkably similar to Covid-19’.

[This is highly significant. There has been growing focus on six miners who fell ill – three eventually died after spending 14 days working amongst bat faeces in the Mojiang mine (later sealed up) about 1,000 miles from Wuhan.]

Notes

A newly discovered master’s thesis from the Chinese doctor who treated the miners in hospital confirms

6. he sent tissue samples to the Wuhan Institute of Virology, where it was tested and the conclusions reached by the Dr pointed to an unknown coronavirus as the cause of the miners deaths.

[The Dr describes his patients as having fevers, dry coughs, sore limbs and headaches very similar to Covid-19]

7. Shi Zhengli, a renowned WIV Wuhan-based virologist known as Batwoman for her expeditions to gather samples in caves and cutting-edge research went to the caves, where the dead miners were infected, several times in 2012/13 and found an unknown "beta" corona viruses which had the potential to cause a pandemic called BtCoV/4991 (4991)

Prof Shi published papers on the beta coronavirus 4991 in 2016

She told Scientific American magazine in June that the miners had died from a fungal infection caught in the mines
rather than coronavirus which appears to be an untrue statement.]

Other experts have questioned why more information has not been shared about this strain 4991 which fuels the idea of zoonotic transmission.

It has since emerged that, unusually, virus 4991 had its name changed in 2020 from 4991 the virus identified in the previous 2016 academic paper to RaTG13, so obscuring links to the earlier 2016 research and the Mojiang mines where the dead miners were infected in 2012.

‘The fact that Shi keeps trying to divert attention away from these dead miners and their potential link to the RaTG13 previously referred to in 2016 studies as the 4991 discovery and Covid-19 is concerning,’ said one leading Western expert.




Understanding the Origin of ‘BatCoVRaTG13’, a Virus Closest to SARS-CoV-2
Monali C. Rahalkar * ORCID logo and Rahul A. Bahulikar
Version 1 : Received: 19 May 2020 / Approved: 20 May 2020 / Online: 20 May 2020 (07:08:38 CEST)


RNA dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp) of RaTG13 shows that it is 100% similar to that of bat corona virus BtCoV/4991 also described by Dr. Zhengli Shi and her group in 2016.

BtCoV/4991 was described to be a SARS-like (SL-) corona virus from bat feces sampled in an abandoned mine from Mojiang.

These facts increase the possibility that RaTG13 could be the same as BtCoV/4991, based on the RdRp sequence similarities and similarities in sample collection dates and regions.

RaTG13 RNA sample could have originated from the bat feces collected from an abandoned mineshaft in Mojiang.

In 2012, this mineshaft reported deaths of three miners due to pneumonia and the exact etiological reason remained unknown.

Dr. Zhengli Shi and her coworkers studied 276 bats fecal/anal swab samples from which a single SL-corona virus was detected, and this was BtCoV/4991.

 
Sep 15, 2020
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Unlike most of the very positive views in this thread stating that the Corona virus could not possibly have been engineered in a laboratory, I am almost certain that the Corona virus is the direct result of research done in a lab, probably by the Chinese. Here is why. Prior to 2019 when the virus made its appearance, China was hugely into bio-tech experiments. They were cloning everything from sheep to pigs. They were genetically altering all sorts of animals with very little oversight or controls. I remember seeing pigs in all colours of the rainbow. Pigs that glowed in the night. In 2019, some kind of swine flu or other disease swept through the swine population of China devastating whole herds. China also appeared to have a lot of help from the USA, although it was not at the time known to the US Government. Here is an excerpt: (Notice it takes place in wuhan!)

"Charles Leiber, who chairs the prestigious school’s Chemistry and Chemical Biology Department, was taken into custody at his office. He has been charged with one count of making a materially false, fictitious and fraudulent statement – and was set to appear Tuesday in federal court in Boston, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office of the District of Massachusetts.

“Unbeknownst to Harvard University, beginning in 2011, Lieber became a ‘Strategic Scientist’ at Wuhan University of Technology (WUT) in China and was a contractual participant in China’s Thousand Talents Plan from in or about 2012 to 2017,” a statement from the Office says."


Here is a link to the article: https://www.foxnews.com/us/harvard-university-professor-arrested

Note the term strategic scientist and from 2011 almost 10 years!
You are correct. Have at it:

1. RNA editing can now be done 1 codon at a time, which can make the RNA code they are comparing to models seem to be 100% natural. The way they compare them now is by checking "change","rate of change" and comparing that to known models They also analyze the genome for traces of modifications done by known techniques like TALON or Zinc Fingers. In recent times, as of June 2019 these methods do not prove anything. So any media outlet that posts stuff like this is lying to you or not caught up with the times.

July 2019 - a published paper by Mr Zeng on how to edit RNA codon by codon.
June 2020 - a published paper showing Mr Zeng has moved on to working on COVID-19.

2. Spike Protein research pre Covid-19. This is from 2009 of scientists basically making covid-19, remember we did not have codon by codon editing so they would get caught in 2009, but this is the groundwork....
 
Sep 15, 2020
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I always prefer to use logic when trying to decipher the unknown in any case. I would just like to make a few points that are absolute. Just to state my position I am undecided on this it could be either way I don't know there simply isn't enough clear information yet to make any determination.

#1 - If a virus where to be engineered with the intention of release we need to consider why such a virus would be released. In this case there would likely one of two goals which would be minimal depopulation or maximal depopulation.

#2 - There would be a number of criteria that would have to be met in order to have a good candidate for each of these two types. I will just lay out some points for a minimal mortality virus.

- Mortality highest in oldest patients
- Easily transmitted
- Rapidly spreading
- Stealthy
- Here is the most important attribute: The structure of the virus is built in a way that is indistinguishable from what would be expected to be seen in nature. The best I can compare this idea from experience comes from Doom mapping. There has been competitions whereby mappers are instructed to create a 90's style map. That is actually really hard to and do well but the winners do it in a way that their mistakes look genuine and that is very hard to do when knowingly making mistakes.

If this was created purposefully the engineers did an absolute perfect job and would relish seeing this article while basking in success. Conspiracy theories aside I am undecided however in any case just like going to trial you are innocent until proven guilty this is natural until proven otherwise by logic and hard facts of course.
I feel you there is NO CLEAR information unfortunately.

1. Motive: This virus seems custom tailored to spread as much hysteria as possible with as little actual impact. Take for example the very high average age of death and that most people that get it will probably die within the next few years, coupled with a much higher death rate than the actual flu, which gives a easy ability to distort the fact that the overall impact in terms of years of life lost is most likely very low, possibly even lower than the flu and without the much more tragic deaths of young people.

2. Please read my previous post. The people researching genetic manipulation are not taking into account advances that have been made in the field. Advances that almost directly coincide with the release of COVID-19.

Additional lay person reading:
 

adam

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A July 2020 well researched study by 2 specialist PhDs has not received much coverage but shows knowledge about Covid-19s closest linked virus has not been properly disclosed - it needs urgent answers

It shows that Prof Shi and the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) did not disclose the extensive work and research Prof Shi, WIV and others including medical Drs had done after 6 miners were infected with an unknown coronavirus in 2012.

These miners worked in the bat cave which was later linked to Covid-19 by WIV and Professor Shi in 2020

Prof Shi / WIV repeatedly visited these same bat caves after 3 of these miners died in 2012 with Covid-19 like symptoms from an unknown virus.

Prof Shi / WIV identified an unknown beta corona virus in these bat caves in 2013 and published a study in 2016 about the new coronavirus - identifying it as having SARS like pandemic potential and in 2020 linking the same virus as the closest to Covid-19


Separately in May 2013 a medical study was published on the death and illness of these miners by Dr Xu the hospital Dr who looked after the sick miners and consulted with WIV about the illness

Dr Xu study can be viewed and downloaded in the link above

“The Analysis of 6 Patients with Severe Pneumonia Caused by Unknown viruses“.

Further WIV received and tested the blood and tissue from the miners - Dr Xu's study sets out

“In the later stage we worked with Dr. Zhong Nan Shan
[Chinese SARS leader and from 2020 Chinese Covid-19 response specialist leader]
and did some sampling.

The patient tested positive for serum IgM by the WuHan Institute of Virology. It suggested the existence of virus infection” (p62 in the section “Comprehensive Analysis”.)

We further know that, on June 27th, 2012, the doctors performed an unexplained thymectomy on a miner / patient 4. The thymus is an immune organ that can potentially be removed without greatly harming the patient and it could have contained large quantities of virus.

Prof Shi / WIV went repeatedly to the miners bat cave after 2012 and in 2013 identified a new beta coronavirus BtCoV/4991 (4991) plus published studies on 4991 in 2016 and in 2017 and 2018

After Covid-19 appeared in 2020 WIV published the data for 4991 but it had now been renamed RaTG13 and WIV failed to disclose RaTG13 was actually 4991 (this info was discovered by other researchers) plus WIV did not link or release the previous 2013 medical study findings or the 2016 and later Prof Shi / WIV published studies

Among their 2013/2016 findings from the miners cave were two beta corona viruses, one of which was RaTG13 (then known as BtCoV/4991) and the closest link to Covid-19 was issolated in 2013

In the coronavirus world beta corona viruses are special in that both SARS and MERS, the most deadly of all coronaviruses, are both beta corona viruses.

Thus they are considered to have special pandemic potential, as the concluding sentence of the WIV / Prof Shi study which found RaTG13 implied: “special attention should particularly be paid to these lineages of coronaviruses” (Ge at al., 2016).

In fact, the WIV and Prof Shi and other labs have for years been predicting that bat betacoronaviruses like RaTG13 would go pandemic; so to find RaTG13 where the miners fell ill was a scenario in perfect alignment with their expectations.

Given the interests of the WIV / Prof Shi lab in zoonotic origins of human disease, once such a sample was sent to them, it would have been obvious and straightforward for them to investigate how a virus from bats had managed to infect these miners.

Any viruses recoverable from the miners would likely have been viewed by them as a unique natural experiment in human passaging offering unprecedented and otherwise-impossible-to-obtain insights into how bat coronaviruses can adapt to humans.

The WIV itself didn’t disclose any of these links nor does it seem that any follow up on the miners has taken place.

On the contrary, in a March 2020 interview the famous WIV “bat woman” Prof Shi Zhengli claimed “a fungus” had caused the miners’ illness - however it seems clear from Dr Xu medical study and Prof Shi's research that

1. the miners hospital Dr (Dr Xu) had already indentified that an unknown virus was the likely cause of the illness and deaths and any fungal infection was secondary

2. WIV had tested the miners blood and identified a unknown virus

3. Prof Shi had by 2013 discovered a new potentially pandemic type beta corona virus / 4991 in these same bat caves

4. in 2020 Prof Shi said this 4991 / RaTG13 virus was the closest virus to Covid-19

5. Prof Shi did not in 2020 promptly or initially disclose the work she and others had done from 2012 onwards about 4991 or the name change of the 4991 bat cave virus which hid its origin

6. Prof Shi has objected to questions about the resesrch not disclosed or on requests for clarification about what happened to missing WIV staff and WIV and other data that has been deleted and now not available

7. Dr Xu research on the miners deaths in 2012 has not been properly reviewed or if it has the findings have not been disclosed

Further links and info are below

There are claims that RaTG13 / 4991 was identified in human tissue in 2012/2013 by WIV but that this was later altered to bat samples

There are screen shots claiming to show the changes above

View: https://twitter.com/TheSeeker268/status/1286327367019839490


This information does not seem to me to be currently verifiable so I only set out the links I have found for info purposes, to save time and in case someone else can verify the claims. There are wayback archieve and other links below










 
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adam

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The Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) and Prof Shi have failed to answer what they knew or know about the deaths of 3 miners in 2012/13 from a virus that we now know had SARS/Covid-19 like symptoms and was caught in bat caves

WIV tested the miners blood and maybe body tissue and confirmed an unidentifed virus.

See the previous post above for all the info and links to the human medical studies by Dr Xu plus other info

Below is a youtube video from a well respected PhD who explains why this is all of concern and at the very least needs proper clarification of what WIV knows. It explains the 2020 release of the the new corona virus info most closely related to covid-19

See youtube link from about 44 minutes and 20 seconds

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oWpO9Dg768k


Below is an edited version of the above video on Bitchute see from around 18 minutes and 20 seconds into the video


The video does not go into detail about the medical testing done on the miners or the medical study but it explains how the name of the virus was changed in 2020 and not reported so hiding the previous research etc plus how it was eventually forced out


Summary

Prof Shi visited the miners bat caves in July 2013 and identified a new SARS like corona virus in the same caves.

Prof Shi's above discovery happened within 2 months of Dr Xu (the miners hospital Dr) finalizing his masters thesis on the miners in 2013 called

“The Analysis of 6 Patients with Severe Pneumonia Caused by Unknown viruses“.

In 2020 Prof Shi released info that said the July 2013 corona virus was the closest virus found to Covid-19 but did not provide links and access to all the public data that was available about this new corona virus - including Prof Shi's own published research on this July 2013 virus

Some claim Prof Shi hid the fact that she had submitted various reseach papers on the July 2013 virus for publication from 2015 onwards (first research published 2016)

In any event the name of the July 2013 virus was changed by Prof Shi in 2020 and no links or reference made to the old registered name, her own research or the human medical study.

Dr Xu wrote his masters thesis paper by May 2013 in which he confirms

WIV tested the miners blood and a viral infection was highlighted,
that significant viral holding tissue was removed by operation from one miner and
that 3 miners died of an unknown virus with symptoms we now know as like SARS/Covid-19

However in 2020 Prof Shi somehow implies she did no real research or testing on this unknown corona virus after getting samples in 2013 though such research was her main goal and she published research papers highlighting this new virus to have SARS like or pandemic potential plus she knew by 2020 and probaly by 2013 it was linked to the death of 3 miners with SARS and Covid-19 like symptoms.

In July 2020 Prof Shi admitted the July 2013 virus (4991) was the same as the "new" virus called RaTG13 disclosed in 2020 as the closest virus to Covid-19

"Shi said 4991 is actually RaTG13: 4991 was named for the bat, and was switched to RaTG13 after the entire virus was sequenced."


Links about the 2013 and 2020 virus data




 

Com

Sep 19, 2020
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A persistent coronavirus myth that this virus, called SARS-CoV-2, was made by scientists and escaped from a lab in Wuhan is completely unfounded. Here's how we know.

The coronavirus did not escape from a lab. Here's how we know. : Read more
I'm not a geneticist but am an IT person interested in argument. The arguments given in this article are shoddy and tendentious. Here is one of the principal planks in their thesis:
"Scientists have studied how SARS-CoV differs from SARS-CoV-2 — with several key letter changes in the genetic code. Yet in computer simulations, the mutations in SARS-CoV-2 don't seem to work very well at helping the virus bind to human cells. If scientists had deliberately engineered this virus, they wouldn't have chosen mutations that computer models suggest won't work. But it turns out, nature is smarter than scientists, and the novel coronavirus found a way to mutate that was better — and completely different— from anything scientists could have created, the study found. "

Here are some alternative explanations!
  1. The simulation model used in this article could be different to the simulation used in Wuhan. Or the Wuhan scientists could have run the same simulation model, made the virus, found it produced a dud, thought 'that doesn't make sense', then re-written their simulation model.
  2. The Wuhan scientists could have run the simulation, made the virus, found it produced a dud, but thought it looked promising, so played around with manual changes to see if anything useful came out of it, and made those.
  3. The Wuhan scientists could have produced a mediocre virus, then carelessly left it lying around for a while and it mutated to produce the deadly Covid-19. They are still culpable, just like manslaughter is a crime, just like murder.
Here are some problems with what is written:
  • "It turns out, nature is smarter than scientists" - this is clearly written by a non-scientist. What nature has is billions of years time, and trillions of experimental tries, which allows it to get solutions we fail to find. But if we are talking about a closed universe type situation with all variables accounted for, given enough time and computing power, we should be able to achieve the same in our model.
  • "the novel coronavirus found a way to mutate that was better — and completely different— from anything scientists could have created" - this is written by someone who doesn't understand the principle of modelling, or is too blinkered to see the defects in their model. Following from the above point, it should say "should have modelled" not "could have created".
I could go on, but you either see what I'm saying about argument loopholes and modelling, or you don't.
 
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Sep 22, 2020
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Yeah it looks legit and it is good to see. I'm almost ready to take the tinfoil off. 😁 However, is it not possible that it could still be engineered but made not to look engineered?
Manmade or not it seems to have been released on purpose.
 

Wal

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Yeah it looks legit and it is good to see. I'm almost ready to take the tinfoil off. 😁 However, is it not possible that it could still be engineered but made not to look engineered?
now trump can’t blame all Chinese and Asian peoples? Seems his racism gets worse and worse every month. What a Monster.
 
Sep 23, 2020
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THis Chinse Virus is either man-made or escaped from the lab or both. So, all of a sudden a virus just manifested itself. Tell that to the dogs and if dogs heard you say that, they probably won't believe it.
Do you think it could not of just manifested itself ?
 
Sep 23, 2020
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I always prefer to use logic when trying to decipher the unknown in any case. I would just like to make a few points that are absolute. Just to state my position I am undecided on this it could be either way I don't know there simply isn't enough clear information yet to make any determination.

#1 - If a virus where to be engineered with the intention of release we need to consider why such a virus would be released. In this case there would likely one of two goals which would be minimal depopulation or maximal depopulation.

#2 - There would be a number of criteria that would have to be met in order to have a good candidate for each of these two types. I will just lay out some points for a minimal mortality virus.

- Mortality highest in oldest patients
- Easily transmitted
- Rapidly spreading
- Stealthy
- Here is the most important attribute: The structure of the virus is built in a way that is indistinguishable from what would be expected to be seen in nature. The best I can compare this idea from experience comes from Doom mapping. There has been competitions whereby mappers are instructed to create a 90's style map. That is actually really hard to and do well but the winners do it in a way that their mistakes look genuine and that is very hard to do when knowingly making mistakes.

If this was created purposefully the engineers did an absolute perfect job and would relish seeing this article while basking in success. Conspiracy theories aside I am undecided however in any case just like going to trial you are innocent until proven guilty this is natural until proven otherwise by logic and hard facts of course.
Are three that good of engineers to purposely create this maybe so in my thinking the virus could have bin released from the melting ice caps
 

adam

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Do you think it could not of just manifested itself ?
This virus seems too well suited to human infection and has no recent animal hosts or earlier human strains to be obviously naturally occuring.

The following is public info -

See livescience links in my previous posts at the very end of this post for the info referred to including 2013 human medical paper on Covid-19 like human deaths and infections in which the WIV identified an unknown viral infection in human blood samples.

The nearest virus to covid-19 is a bat corona virus discovered in 2013 in bat caves in China by Prof Shi the worlds leadng expert on bat coronaviruses and the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV)

In 2012/13 - 6 miners working in the bat caves caught an unknown virus. 3 miners died of the unknown virus with covid-19 like symptoms

WIV was involved in the testing of blood and possibly human tissue from these miners and identified an unknown viral infection. This is declared in research see next item

In May 2013 the hospital Dr for the dead miners published a medical paper/thesis on the miners deaths etc. Publically available

In July 2013 Prof Shi / WIV discovered an unknown SARS like corona virus in the same bat caves the dead miners got infected and then sealed off the bat caves from human access

In July 2015 Prof Shi / WIV submitted research info for publication about the July 2013 unknown coronavirus setting out it was SARS like with pandemic potential. Prof Shi / WIV published additional research on this unknown July 2013 bat cave corona virus up to around 2018.

COVID-19 Disclosures by Prof Shi / WIV

In 2020 Prof Shi / WIV disclosed they had discovered the July 2013 virus was the nearest virus to covid-19.

However Prof Shi

In 2020 changed the name of the July 2013 virus

and failed to

disclose the name change of the July 2013 unknown corona virus
or
all Prof Shi's previous published research on the July 2013 corona virus
or
disclose the links to the dead miners
or
the medical paper / thesis
or
disclose any unpublished research on July 2013 corona virus

This seems very careless and strange

Prof Shi later said the miners died of a fungal infection which was untrue. The Drs thesis set out that any fungal infection was a secondary infection and not the cause of death

Prof Shi also said she did no real work on this July 2013 SARS like corona virus with pandemic potential before 2020

It is clear some research was done and it is not credible to say that Prof Shi / WIV did nothing between 2013 and 2020

Prof Shi wrote papers on gain of function research to discover how viruses could be made to pass in humans more easily





Conclusion

Covid-19 started in the city where stocks of the nearest virus to covid-19 have been held since July 2013,

WIV has carried out some research on the July 2013 virus as papers were published by Prof Shi

There has been no open disclosure of what unpublished research Prof Shi did on the July 2013 corona virus

When covid-19 did start spreading it was very well adapted to human transmission

There has also been a strange cover up by China - destroying virus samples, withholding info, denying known human to human infection and punishing Drs and researchers and closing labs who disclosed true information about what had happened


Final Comment

If you look at MERS it was hosted in camels and then on to people - but was more infectious in camels than people. Bird flu had an animal host and only people working closely with birds seemed to get it.

In both cases human to human transmission was not easy

The links below are for different posts which have links to all the info quoted above including Dr Xu's medical paper on the death with covid-19 like symptoms of 3 miners in 2012/13 from an unknown virus caught in bat caves




 
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Gringoz

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Oct 3, 2020
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A persistent coronavirus myth that this virus, called SARS-CoV-2, was made by scientists and escaped from a lab in Wuhan is completely unfounded. Here's how we know.

The coronavirus did not escape from a lab. Here's how we know. : Read more
Covid 19 is really covid 12 and has been in the lab since the first mine worker was infected 1000 miles away from Wuhan. However you can choose to believe whatever you choose the Chinese are now claiming that it was manufactured

 

efarina96

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Oct 17, 2020
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If I were to take the position, that if you can give me a scientific reason why this didn't escape from a lab, a government could concoct (given sufficiently advanced hidden technology) a scientific means of covering their tracks, what would be your response? This is a sincere question as I do not trust our government in the slightest as they have consistently demonstrated the tendency to hide technology, obscure truth, and engage in outright lies and propaganda. Other governments are even worse, particularly China.
 
Jul 24, 2020
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For me, the failure of the lab escape theory lies in the acceptance of a conspiracy that an unknown virus was manipulated and released by accident/deliberately. That is not to say such was impossible, just that it depends on an assumption of fact that doesnt fit with previous practice, ie. publication of newly discovered coronavirus sequences. The fact is, that there are large caves in parts of China and neighbouring regions, that are filled with coronavirus harbouring bats, where passage and recombination of as of yet undiscovered coronaviruses is frequently occuring, some of which have the potential to eventually cross over to infect humans. The possibility that such occured in 2019 seems to be just as likely to me as a lab escaped virus, perhaps more so, given that its been proven that it happened in 2002.
 
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adam

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Jul 2, 2020
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For me, the failure of the lab escape theory lies in the acceptance of a conspiracy that an unknown virus was manipulated and released by accident/deliberately. That is not to say such was impossible, just that it depends on an assumption of fact that doesnt fit with previous practice, ie. publication of newly discovered coronavirus sequences. The fact is, that there are large caves in parts of China and neighbouring regions, that are filled with coronavirus harbouring bats, where passage and recombination of as of yet undiscovered coronaviruses is frequently occuring, some of which have the potential to eventually cross over to infect humans. The possibility that such occured in 2019 seems to be just as likely to me as a lab escaped virus, perhaps more so, given that its been proven that it happened in 2002.


This is the best research I have seen so far to explain the natural orgins of Covid-19 and part of its jump to humans

The link below reviews a paper written by a Dr Xu who took care of six chinese miners 3 of whom died in 2012 from an unknown coronavirus with symptoms like covid-19 caught in a bat cave

The Wuhan Institute of Virology / WIV was involved in studying the miners blood and tissue for Dr Xu

Prof Shi (the bat lady) made 4? trips to the same bat cave and collected samples which provided the closest virus to covid-19 as disclosed by WIV in 2020

If you search in the paper linked below for the title and passage below in [square brackets] you can read the findings for yourself

[“The Analysis of 6 Patients with Severe Pneumonia Caused by Unknown viruses“.

The original English version of the abstract implicates a SARS-like coronavirus as the probable causative agent and that the mine “had a lot of bats and bats’ feces”.

The findings of the Master’s thesis]




My summary of some of the info is below

“The Analysis of 6 Patients with Severe Pneumonia Caused by Unknown viruses“.

Further WIV received and tested the blood and tissue from the miners - Dr Xu's study sets out

“In the later stage we worked with Dr. Zhong Nan Shan
[Chinese SARS leader and from 2020 Chinese Covid-19 response specialist leader]
and did some sampling.

The patient tested positive for serum IgM by the WuHan Institute of Virology. It suggested the existence of virus infection” (p62 in the section “Comprehensive Analysis”.)

We further know that, on June 27th, 2012, the doctors performed an unexplained thymectomy on a miner / patient 4. The thymus is an immune organ that can potentially be removed without greatly harming the patient and it could have contained large quantities of virus.

Prof Shi / WIV went repeatedly to the miners bat cave after 2012 and in 2013 identified a new beta coronavirus BtCoV/4991 (4991) plus published studies on 4991 in 2016 and in 2017 and 2018

After Covid-19 appeared in 2020 WIV published the data for 4991 but it had now been renamed RaTG13 and WIV failed to disclose RaTG13 was actually 4991 (this info was discovered by other researchers) plus WIV did not link or release the previous 2013 medical study findings or the 2016 and later Prof Shi / WIV published studies

Among their 2013/2016 findings from the miners cave were two beta corona viruses, one of which was RaTG13 (then known as BtCoV/4991) and the closest link to Covid-19 which was issolated in 2013

In the coronavirus world beta corona viruses are special in that both SARS and MERS, the most deadly of all coronaviruses, are both beta corona viruses.

Thus they are considered to have special pandemic potential, as the concluding sentence of the WIV / Prof Shi study which found RaTG13 implied: “special attention should particularly be paid to these lineages of coronaviruses” (Ge at al., 2016).
 
Nov 6, 2020
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The Chinese artificially created the virus, but apparently there was a leak and now we have 1.2 million deaths and 32 million people who recovered but were left without healthy lungs
 
Jul 27, 2020
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The Chinese artificially created the virus
If one has significant knowledge of virology and molecular biology, it would be obvious by a simple evaluation of the requirements that this virus was NOT "artificially created" in a lab, or anywhere else. Such manipulations are well beyond our current capabilities. We are simply not that clever, yet.

"Altering" or "isolating" an existing strain is another story. While it has no doubt been covered in the many posts before these, a viral isolate from the wild, by itself or by isolating it from "downstream" serial infections, could have been produced in a lab, and somehow got into humans. This is not "artificially created". It is using strictly natural processes, albeit with human assistance.

Many of these viruses are replicating in all kinds of animals at very low levels, and may never infect humans unless they are amplified and allowed sufficient exposure to human hosts. There is every reason to believe that direct transfer to humans from either an animal, or a lab isolate from an animal (or cell culture), is the source of the original strain now brutalizing the world.
 
Jul 24, 2020
43
15
555
This is the best research I have seen so far to explain the natural orgins of Covid-19 and part of its jump to humans

The link below reviews a paper written by a Dr Xu who took care of six chinese miners 3 of whom died in 2012 from an unknown coronavirus with symptoms like covid-19 caught in a bat cave

The Wuhan Institute of Virology / WIV was involved in studying the miners blood and tissue for Dr Xu

Prof Shi (the bat lady) made 4? trips to the same bat cave and collected samples which provided the closest virus to covid-19 as disclosed by WIV in 2020

If you search in the paper linked below for the title and passage below in [square brackets] you can read the findings for yourself

[“The Analysis of 6 Patients with Severe Pneumonia Caused by Unknown viruses“.

The original English version of the abstract implicates a SARS-like coronavirus as the probable causative agent and that the mine “had a lot of bats and bats’ feces”.

The findings of the Master’s thesis]




My summary of some of the info is below

“The Analysis of 6 Patients with Severe Pneumonia Caused by Unknown viruses“.

Further WIV received and tested the blood and tissue from the miners - Dr Xu's study sets out

“In the later stage we worked with Dr. Zhong Nan Shan
[Chinese SARS leader and from 2020 Chinese Covid-19 response specialist leader]
and did some sampling.

The patient tested positive for serum IgM by the WuHan Institute of Virology. It suggested the existence of virus infection” (p62 in the section “Comprehensive Analysis”.)

We further know that, on June 27th, 2012, the doctors performed an unexplained thymectomy on a miner / patient 4. The thymus is an immune organ that can potentially be removed without greatly harming the patient and it could have contained large quantities of virus.

Prof Shi / WIV went repeatedly to the miners bat cave after 2012 and in 2013 identified a new beta coronavirus BtCoV/4991 (4991) plus published studies on 4991 in 2016 and in 2017 and 2018

After Covid-19 appeared in 2020 WIV published the data for 4991 but it had now been renamed RaTG13 and WIV failed to disclose RaTG13 was actually 4991 (this info was discovered by other researchers) plus WIV did not link or release the previous 2013 medical study findings or the 2016 and later Prof Shi / WIV published studies

Among their 2013/2016 findings from the miners cave were two beta corona viruses, one of which was RaTG13 (then known as BtCoV/4991) and the closest link to Covid-19 which was issolated in 2013

In the coronavirus world beta corona viruses are special in that both SARS and MERS, the most deadly of all coronaviruses, are both beta corona viruses.

Thus they are considered to have special pandemic potential, as the concluding sentence of the WIV / Prof Shi study which found RaTG13 implied: “special attention should particularly be paid to these lineages of coronaviruses” (Ge at al., 2016).
Are you saying RaTG13 is the precursor virus to sars-cov-2? It has been suggested that there is decades of natural evolution between the two so this scenario seems unlikely.
 
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