Question Senior CIA Officer Dino Brugiono worked on original film of JFK Assassination confirmed editing of fatal shot - Why No Media Report ?

adam

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The media has never covered the confirmation by the senior long term career CIA Directorate officer Dino Brugioni about his direct knowledge of the editing and doctoring of the Zapruder film showing the 1963 President Kennedy assassination fatal shots.

Brugioni says specifically that he and others were asked to repeatedly watch the fatal head shot on the 11/23/1963 before they prepared a briefing for the CIA Director.

Brugioni is very clear that the brain debris created a huge white cloud that lasted a long time.

The images shocked them.

Brugioni states in hours of video interviews while viewing the official National Archive Zapruder film and in other recorded testimony - that the publicly available version of the Zapruder film is not the film he repeatedly viewed and worked on with other CIA experts on the night of the 23rd Nov 1963.

This is the day after the assassination - and viewing was done to prepare a presentation for the CIA Director for the next day Sunday 24th Nov 1963 - the day before the Kennedy funeral.

It is clear that all CIA film and photo records have not been turned over as was required and what has been disclosed as original is in fact seriously edited.

Dino A. Brugioni, served for over 20 years as the Chief Information Officer (the “briefing board czar”) at CIA’s top secret National Photographic Interpretation Center (NPIC) – in Washington, D.C.

Brugioni had a very long and successful CIA career - he joined in 1948 with an extensive background in intelligence photography. He received numerous CIA citations and commendations, including the CIA Intelligence Medal of Merit, the CIA Career Intelligence Medal plus many other US Govt and Presidential awards.



Brugioni was formally interviewed and recorded for many hours by Douglas P Horne who served as the Chief Analyst for Military Records for the ARRB (formally, The Assassination Records Review Board) appointed by the US Congress and responsible for declassifying documents and records held by the CIA, the FBI, the Secret Service, ONI, and other federal agencies under The JFK Records Act

See video below

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J_QIuu6hsAc

Brugioni makes clear that todays "original" National Archive Zapruder film is false as it shows only a small brain debris cloud around the fatal head shot, has been edited to color it red and pink and lasts only for a short time frame around the fatal head shot - this is not what he originally viewed.

He also notes he saw on the original Zapruder film Jackie Kennedy's secret agent bodyguard violently forcing Jackie Kennedy off the back lid area of the car into car seating area - after he jumped onto the back of the car.

Brugioni is clear that both the head shot and Jackie Kennedy bodyguard event have been heavily edited out and are missing from the National Archive film classified as the original.

Brugioni is clearly was quite startled to find out that there was only one frame [313] graphically depicting the “head explosion” in the film, which the National Archives has characterized as “the original film.” He insisted that the head explosion he viewed multiple times on 11/23/63 was of such a great size, and duration (in terms of time), that there should be many more frames depicting that explosion than “just the one frame” (frame 313), as shown in the Zapruder film today.

Furthermore, he said the “head explosion” depicted in the Zapruder film today is too small in size, and too low in the frame, to be the same graphic depiction he recalls witnessing in the Zapruder film on Saturday, November 23rd, 1963 at NPIC.

The long and very clear video interview with Brugioni received little if any press coverage.

It shows the level of cover up immediately following the assassination and in the following decades. This NPIC version of the Zapruder film is still withheld.

While viewing the Zapruder video on July 9, 2011, Mr. Brugioni also stated that the head explosion he viewed was a large “white cloud” that surrounded President Kennedy’s head, and was not pink or red, as shown in the extant Zapruder film.

The words below are excerpted from Dino Brugioni’s April 28, 2011 interview with Peter Janney, as he recounted what he recalled seeing when he watched the head explosion in the Zapruder film on 11/23/63:

“…I remember all of us being shocked…it was straight up [gesturing high above his own head]…in the sky…There should have been more than one frame…I thought the spray was, say, three or four feet from his head…what I saw was more than that [than frame 313 in today’s film]…it wasn’t low [as in frame 313], it was high…there was more than that in the original…It was way high off of his head…and I can’t imagine that there would only be one frame. What I saw was more than you have there [in frame 313].” [17] [emphasis as spoken]

Brugioni confirmed unequivocally that it was the Zapruder film he was working with, and not some other film.

Aside from the head shot, he recalled one other thing about the current Zapruder film that was inconsistent with what he saw on 11/23/63:

He had independently recalled Secret Service agent Clint Hill either physically striking, or violently pushing Jackie Kennedy to force her from atop the trunk lid, back into the rear seat of the limousine. Brugioni spent a considerable portion of the interview attempting to find evidence of Clint Hill “striking Jackie” in the current Zapruder film, to no avail. He was quite mystified.


Brugioni states that copies of his NPIC work were kept in a safe at NPIC and not provided to the Warren Commission or later assassination investigations after the 1960s as was required.

Mr. Brugioni clearly recalls that the film delivered was an 8 mm film. He is positive about this because one member of his team had to go out that night and, through special arrangement, purchase a brand-new 8 mm projector, so that the film could be viewed as a motion picture. [NPIC had a state-of-the-art 16 mm projector installed in its briefing room, but had no 8 mm movie projectors.] He is also positive in his own mind that it was the original film, and not a copy.

The video interview with Dino Brugioni clearly shows there was a confirmed and remains an on going cover up of the editing of at least part of the best known film of the Kennedy assassination by Zapruder

Add to this that 24 hours later another group at NPIC were provided with a 16mm "original" Zapruder film that had come from Kodaks nearby top secret CIA processing facility called the "Hawkeye" Plant or Lab.

It is possible the 16mm film delivered to NPIC 24 hours after the 8mm film may have been edited to remove frames previously identified as unsuitable for a second set of presentation boards

At a later date a repurposed 8mm fake or edited final version appears to have been produced

Brugioni makes clear the story boards and notes in the National Archive are not those he worked on. It is also clear that the second story board photos would need to match up with the edited National Archive Zapruder Film.

The editing may include the alledged point in the film that the Kennedy car is reported to have almost come to a stop just prior to the fatal shot. This was reported by numerous witnesses on the day and so would tie in with the reduced head shot frames reported.

For a full breakdown of the known events around who had the Zapruder Film and the various copies made in Dallas on the day of the assassination read the info below


This references Douglas P Horne.

Mr. Brugioni, like Mr. McMahon did 24 hours later, presided over the making of enlargements – blowup prints – from individual frames of the Zapruder film, which were then mounted on briefing boards. But Brugioni's work crew was entirely different than McMahon’s and neither knew about the other until the 2000s

Yet each man believed, without any doubt, that he was working with the original film. And the two events occurred only one day apart.

Brugioni didn't know about the second examination and believes the Zapruder Film in the archives today is not the film he saw the day after the assassination

Mr. Brugioni was contacted again in 2011, and the information that he had previously provided in 2009 was reconfirmed by Peter Janney in an MP3-recorded interview at Mr. Brugioni’s home on April 28, 2011; as well as in a four-hour-long HD video interview conducted by Douglas P Horne on July 9, 2011. Mr. Brugioni’s memory remained sharp, and his credibility high – very high.

The Briefing Boards placed in the National Archives by the CIA in 1993 are not the briefing boards prepared by Dino Brugioni’s team: In 1993, the CIA’s Historical Review Group (HRG), as required by the JFK Records Act, deposited with the National Archives one set of briefing boards identified in 1975 at NPIC – a four panel set (four loose panels, not joined to each other in any way) – mounting frame enlargements of the Zapruder film. In both 2009 and 2011, Mr. Brugioni was shown good photographs of each of these four briefing board panels (which together constitute one set) and he consistently and emphatically denied that the four panels in the JFK Records Collection (in Flat 90A) are the ones he made in 1963. His reasons were as follows: first, the frame numbers his group placed above each print, and the magnification factor his group placed at the top of each board, are not present; second, this briefing board set consists of four loose panels, not two conjoined panels; third, the four panels together contain 28 prints, not the 12 to 15 prints he recalls making for his briefing boards; fourth, each panel in the Archives is labeled “Panel I, Panel II, Panel III, and Panel IV,” which is not what was done on his briefing boards, where there were no identifying numbers placed on each panel; and fifth, the four briefing board panels at the Archives contain different information, and a different layout, than placed on his briefing boards.
Working notes associated with the four briefing board panels at the Archives were not produced by Mr. Brugioni’s team at his event: There are five (5) pages of NPIC working notes (also identified in 1975) stored with the four briefing board panels at the National Archives, in Flat 90A; one is a half-sheet of yellow legal pad paper with writing on both sides; one page is a typewritten summary of the prints (by frame number) on each of the four briefing board panels; and the three other pages consist of a shot and timing analysis of shots that may have hit President Kennedy and Governor Connally (three possible scenarios), keyed to frame numbers and taking into account the amount of time between postulated shots in each scenario. [The first of the three scenarios is the one written about in the December 6, 1963 issue of LIFE magazine.] Mr. Brugioni, in both 2009, and again in 2011, denied having anything to do with these notes, and said he had not ever seen them until 2009, when Peter Janney first showed them to him.

He furthermore volunteered that his group would not have had the time to conduct such a shot and timing analysis at the event he presided over, commencing late on 11/23/63, so busy were they simply counting frames, making internegatives, printing photographic enlargements, and creating the two briefing boards from the photographic prints.

Though Brugioni did state that the two Secret Service officials, after examining the film at least 4 or 5 times as a motion picture, wanted it timed with a stopwatch, to gain an appreciation of time between perceived shots.

They were warned by the NPIC personnel that this would not yield precise or reliable results, since the Bell and Howell movie camera used was a spring-wound camera, and hence its frame rate, or running speed, would have varied throughout the filming of the assassination.

The customer persisted in this desire, however, and therefore the NPIC crew complied. After viewing the film as a motion picture several times, the Secret Service officials requested that specific frames be enlarged and blown-up as photographic prints, and that the prints be mounted on briefing boards. The two segments of the film they focused on were the limousine on Elm Street as it went behind, and emerged from behind, the Stemmons Freeway sign; and the head shot. Mr. Brugioni could not remember any specific conclusions reached that night as to the number of shots fired, but he says the agents came with no pre-conceptions about this, for they had not yet seen the film.

Accompanying Textual Material: Mr. Brugioni personally prepared and typed a one page set of notes for Mr. Arthur Lundahl, NPIC’s Director, to use when delivering the two sets of briefing boards to CIA Director McCone, and briefing him, on Sunday morning. The set of notes contained the names of all the NPIC people involved; the NPIC’s admonition against using a stopwatch to time shots depicted on a film shot with a spring-wound camera; and other technical information about how the briefing boards were prepared. Two sets of notes were prepared, one to go with each briefing board.




Douglas Horne

August 25, 2014 at 7:04 pm
SINCE THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD IS A POSSIBLE CAR STOP, and its removal from the Zapruder film, please allow me to engage in some informed speculation here, as I present my hypothesis about what probably happened:

I do not think it would be possible to remove even a brief car stop (or a rapid deceleration tantamount to a brief “stop”) from a film shot at 16 fps without a huge, undeniable, massive JUMP CUT in the finished product.

I also note that Zapruder and his secetary, Marilyn Sitzman, both were certain that he started filming the motorcade BEFORE the limousine turned from Houston to Elm. And yet that limo turn is NOT in the extant film.

I believe these two subjects are interrelated.

I believe Z. filmed the limo turn at the normal speed of 16 fps, then pressed down a little harder on the operating switch after the turn, INTENTIONALLY, and began filming the motorcade on Elm at the much faster frame rate of 48 fps—three times normal speed—which was oddly enough called “slow motion” (see camera switch closeup in Shane O’Sullivan video). The fast frame rate was called “slow motion” because a film with three times the normal frames shot per second, when played back on a home movie projector at the normal speed of 16 fps, presented a “slow motion” version of what was filmed at the faster speed.

If Z. did this—shot the Elm Street motorcade at 48 fps instead of 16—then the film’s manipulators, in that instance, WOULD, I believe, have been able to remove a brief car stop WITHOUT a massive “jump cut” being seen in the new version of the film, providing the new, reassembled film was only at the normal rate of 16 fps. Those altering the film would have had the freedom of junking—removing—two thirds of the frames in the 48 fps Z film as they excised the car stop, and reassembled a new film that would run at about 16 fps. This would have been done using step printing in an optical printer. (ALSO, an animation stand in an aerial optical printer would have been used to alter wound images—black out the back of the head—during the same operation.)

But changing operating speeds would have produced a giveaway in the film—a massive density change for many, many frames until the light meter and iris adjusted to the faster frame rate. That would have been an indicator that Z had switched from the normal run speed to SLOW MOTION (i.e., 48 fps). Since the reassembled film (now without the car stop) was reduced to a 16 fps “normal” film speed again, the entire turn sequence containing the density change would have HAD TO BE OPTICALLY EXCISED—edited out—to avoid revealing that Z had switched the running speed to a much higher frame rate.

We note today that there IS a jump cut in the film, well up Elm Street, from scenes of advance motorcyclists to scenes of the JFK limo suddenly appearing out of nowhere. There is NO first-frame overexposure at this abrupt transition, as there should be in any spring-wound camera. The absence of first-frame overexposure, Hollywood experts agree, is an impossibility when one stops and then restarts a spring-wound camera. Therefore, I conclude that the turn from Houston to Elm was optically excised in an optical printer, and that is why there is no first-frame overexposure at this transition.

It all hangs together, or seems to.

I believe Z. shot the motorcade sequence AFTER the limo turn, at 48 fps (all he had to do was press down more firmly on the operating switch), and that the 48 fps film had to be reduced back down to about 16 fps because of the removal of the car stop.

This is what I believe happened. I believe the many, many persuasive eyewitnesses to the brief limo stop. Their accounts represent reality, and the extant film, in some respects, does not.

Does this remind you of the Japanese masterpiece “Rashomon?” It should, for we are arguing here about what is real and what is not. But I think that in time, we shall come to a firmer conclusion than the audience does when viewing “Rashomon.”

I believe the Zapruder film will remain a critically important film document, but not for the reasons it once was cherished. I think that 20 years from now, when this debate about alteration is over, the Zapruder film will represent NOT the closest thing to ground truth in the Kennedy assassination, but rather crucial evidence of a massive U.S. govt cover-up. END



Watch this abc video below of the studio talking live to a reporter in Dallas in 1963 - the Dallas abc reporter says the Kennedy car came to a stop at the time of the shooting, see the 1:19 video mark. It is one other reason not to dismiss the idea that Abraham Zapruder’s film of JFK’s assassination was altered.

View: https://youtu.be/Lebrh7fynLE?list=PL0O5WNzrZqINovaP2_E0t0Jau5Jam1j9x&t=4754
 
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efarina96

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Without having verified this information, I have to say this is fascinating. Two thoughts: firstly, as to why the media would not report this, just look at the story of Gary Webb. Webb was an investigative reporter who was bullied into suicide by the CIA's pathetic lap dogs in the media after breaking the Nicaraguan Contra scandal. He was discredited and smeared all across America, and Americans everywhere did what they always do, which is take the MSM at their word. Secondly, this just goes to show you how out of control the CIA is. When the OSS/CIA was created, all acountability in our government was instantly destroyed. With the creation of an agency of such broad scope and power, it's creation should have coincided with a constitutional amendment that integrated said agency into our democratic system of careful checks and balances. The whole issue is that their is no legitimate power to check the influence of the CIA. They control the media, blackmail politicians, launch coups, engage in assassinations and frame jobs without fear of any reprisal, all in the name of "national security". When the CIA was created, almost immediately a series of secret organizations emerged within the organization, hidden completely from public view and virtually all powerful. These men were granted a modern day "Ring of Gyges" and they took and continue to take full advantage. It is high time the CIA is held accountable for its behavior and responsible for its crimes against humanity and America. If I were to speculate that the CIA created COVID as part of a plot to create a dystopian society, could you possibly provide any evidence one way or another? Of course not. These people funnel drugs into our cities for profit. They put vulnerable minorities as well as police and first responders in harms way without remorse. They murder our people and anybody else who stands in their way directly and indirectly. They hatch hare-brained plans to engage in false-flag attacks on our own people.

Our government consists of psychopaths, savages and monsters who will stop at nothing to achieve their ends. Our only hope is to recognize the power granted to the people by the Consitution and take back control before it is too late. No more lies. No more manipulations. It's time to force the truth to light.
 

adam

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Please lets have free speech and tolerance - lets stand up for human rights everywhere and lets stop business from funding politicians.

The CIA / Brugioni / NPIC / Zapruder evidence shows how early the CIA started the JFK coverup - on the day of the assassination.

Does this mean the CIA was involved in the JFK assassination ?

Dont know.

What it does show is the CIA and many others were and still are covering up something about what the Zapruder film showed. Many photos taken on the same day disappeared. What did they show ?

By not providing the CIA documents and films that Chief of Information Dino Brugioni worked on at the CIA and kept in his secure CIA / NPIC document safe for many years we all suffer.

The CIA and others will do the same things again until held to account for not providing information that they were required to hand over in the 1970s when the Zapruder info was still in Brugioni's CIA / NPIC safe. This Zapruder info was then sent to the office of the Head of CIA after the handover was required by Congress.

JFK stood against Operation Northwoods which had been formally approved and signed off on by the top Pentagon Generals.

Only JFK stopped Northwoods being actioned.

Among the Pentagon approved Northwoods plans was one for a passanger plane to take off from a civilian airport in Florida full of fake civilian passangers who were actually CIA etc agents.

The plane would land at Eglin Airforce Base and a similar looking empty plane remotely controlled would replace it by taking off from Eglin AFB, and fly towards Cuba. It would then broadcast recorded distress messages saying it was being shot at by Cuban aircraft.

The plane would then be remotely exploded and Cuba blamed. This would be followed by a US invasion of Cuba.

See the video below from 30.42 minutes in - its presented by Doug Horne of the US Congress appointed ARRB who discusses this plan which he calls the scariest of the various Pentagon "approved" schemes

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfak2B1yfY4


Operation Northwoods does show the extent of the planning the Military / Intelligence complex were doing to create false flag operations which also included planting bombs in US cities etc etc, killing Americans and blaming Cuba all to create an excuse to invade Cuba.

Let us all keep in mind there will always be those in power in the military or the establishment who will think that it is OK to do anything to promote themselves or their cause.

We know there were many false flag operations around the world after the JFK assassination (in south america, asia and europe in the 1960s 70s, 80s and on to today) and almost certainly modern versions of the Operation Northwoods false flag plans exist.

More importantly men who think its OK to do false flag operations to start wars or conflicts will hold senior positions of power in the USA and elsewhere.

False flag operations include supporting business interests as well as purely military goals. The Soft Power idea.

However if they and those in the military industrial tech academic complex think they will get caught they are less likely to do it.

This works in the USA, China, Russia, the EU etc.

The only difference is how those with power collect their payments and how power is exercised.

None of this is good for 99.9% of the people which is you and me

We only learn about wrong doing through free speech.

The free speech that followed JFKs death was what eventually revealed the Northwoods wrong doing - it was not a establishment confession that those with power had a crazy wrong idea

The story of Operation Northwoods was first disclosed by the US Congress appointed Assassination Records Review Board / ARRB in 1997, the Northwoods plans are among the most significant new JFK documents to emerge since Oliver Stone's "JFK" movie.

Without the free speech of the Oliver Stone JFK movie the ARRB would not have been set up and the Northwoods secrets revealed.

Those with power do not welcome free speech.

This may explain why we have seen the cutting into freedom of speech in society today
.

People are now segregated by political views and will not talk to the others who are labelled - elitist, woke, dumb or stupid etc etc
.

This is not going to work out well for anyone.

In 1990 the Kuwaiti ambassador's daughter appeared at a US Congress linked body led by both democrats and republicans called the Congressional Human Rights Foundation -

The ambassador's daughter played the part of a simple refugee who had witnessed Iraqi soldiers removing babies from incubators. The US government and Congressmen knew this was false testimony and who she was. President Bush used the fake testimony even though he knew who was behind it.

Amnesty International was tricked into backing the story but later apologized and admitted it had been used without its knowing by the US government

It was all a PR fabrication designed to get support for Kuwait.

Today and in the future the fabrications will be better done and may eventually become part of our accepted history.

Remember the victors write the history books.

In todays world of AI and software such fabrication is even easier than before


I think we all know almost all politicians or people will promote the interests of those who provide them financial support - pharma, tech, defence, coal, oil etc etc.

To protect ourselves we should protect everyones right to peaceful free speech and the sharing of information whether we agree or not with the opinions. The censoring of opinions must stop for the sake of humanity.

People should be free to criticize or support - pharma, oil, coal, tech, solar, defence, climate change, democrats or republicans or others etc

We should not trade freely with those who abuse human rights as they will just get stronger

We know from human history once those with alternative views are silenced the state just takes more power for itself and those it serves.

There is lots of evidence over modern and ancient times that fear has been used to generate political opinion that is not rational and this is then used to stop free speech

Please lets have free speech and tolerance - lets stand up for human rights everywhere and lets stop business from funding politicians.

Lets defend the right to peacefully have different opinions - let us defend others free speech and human rights as we would want to be defended.

That does not mean hate speech is OK but it does mean that reasonable and even extra-ordinary tolerance is a must in any civilized society.

If we abandon this ideal we will lose our humanity and when we lose that we lose almost everything that is good.
 
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efarina96

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Oct 17, 2020
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Please lets have free speech and tolerance - lets stand up for human rights everywhere and lets stop business from funding politicians.

The CIA / Brugioni / NPIC / Zapruder evidence shows how early the CIA started the JFK coverup - on the day of the assassination.

Does this mean the CIA was involved in the JFK assassination ?

Dont know.

What it does show is the CIA and many others were and still are covering up something about what the Zapruder film showed. Many photos taken on the same day disappeared. What did they show ?

By not providing the CIA documents and films that Chief of Information Dino Brugioni worked on at the CIA and kept in his secure CIA / NPIC document safe for many years we all suffer.

The CIA and others will do the same things again until held to account for not providing information that they were required to hand over in the 1970s when the Zapruder info was still in Brugioni's CIA / NPIC safe. This Zapruder info was then sent to the office of the Head of CIA after the handover was required by Congress.

JFK stood against Operation Northwoods which had been formally approved and signed off on by the top Pentagon Generals.

Only JFK stopped Northwoods being actioned.

Among the Pentagon approved Northwoods plans was one for a passanger plane to take off from a civilian airport in Florida full of fake civilian passangers who were actually CIA etc agents.

The plane would land at Eglin Airforce Base and a similar looking empty plane remotely controlled would replace it by taking off from Eglin AFB, and fly towards Cuba. It would then broadcast recorded distress messages saying it was being shot at by Cuban aircraft.

The plane would then be remotely exploded and Cuba blamed. This would be followed by a US invasion of Cuba.

See the video below from 30.42 minutes in - its presented by Doug Horne of the US Congress appointed ARRB who discusses this plan which he calls the scariest of the various Pentagon "approved" schemes

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfak2B1yfY4


Operation Northwoods does show the extent of the planning the Military / Intelligence complex were doing to create false flag operations which also included planting bombs in US cities etc etc, killing Americans and blaming Cuba all to create an excuse to invade Cuba.

Let us all keep in mind there will always be those in power in the military or the establishment who will think that it is OK to do anything to promote themselves or their cause.

We know there were many false flag operations around the world after the JFK assassination (in south america, asia and europe in the 1960s 70s, 80s and on to today) and almost certainly modern versions of the Operation Northwoods false flag plans exist.

More importantly men who think its OK to do false flag operations to start wars or conflicts will hold senior positions of power in the USA and elsewhere.

False flag operations include supporting business interests as well as purely military goals. The Soft Power idea.

However if they and those in the military industrial tech academic complex think they will get caught they are less likely to do it.

This works in the USA, China, Russia, the EU etc.

The only difference is how those with power collect their payments and how power is exercised.

None of this is good for 99.9% of the people which is you and me

We only learn about wrong doing through free speech.

The free speech that followed JFKs death was what eventually revealed the Northwoods wrong doing - it was not a establishment confession that those with power had a crazy wrong idea

The story of Operation Northwoods was first disclosed by the US Congress appointed Assassination Records Review Board / ARRB in 1997, the Northwoods plans are among the most significant new JFK documents to emerge since Oliver Stone's "JFK" movie.

Without the free speech of the Oliver Stone JFK movie the ARRB would not have been set up and the Northwoods secrets revealed.

Those with power do not welcome free speech.

This may explain why we have seen the cutting into freedom of speech in society today.

People are now segregated by political views and will not talk to the others who are labelled - elitist, woke, dumb or stupid etc etc.

This is not going to work out well for anyone.

In 1990 the Kuwaiti ambassador's daughter appeared at a US Congress linked body led by both democrats and republicans called the Congressional Human Rights Foundation -

The ambassador's daughter played the part of a simple refugee who had witnessed Iraqi soldiers removing babies from incubators. The US government and Congressmen knew this was false testimony and who she was. President Bush used the fake testimony even though he knew who was behind it.

Amnesty International was tricked into backing the story but later apologized and admitted it had been used without its knowing by the US government

It was all a PR fabrication designed to get support for Kuwait.

Today and in the future the fabrications will be better done and may eventually become part of our accepted history.

Remember the victors write the history books.

In todays world of AI and software such fabrication is even easier than before


I think we all know almost all politicians or people will promote the interests of those who provide them financial support - pharma, tech, defence, coal, oil etc etc.

To protect ourselves we should protect everyones right to peaceful free speech and the sharing of information whether we agree or not with the opinions. The censoring of opinions must stop for the sake of humanity.

People should be free to criticize or support - pharma, oil, coal, tech, solar, defence, climate change, democrats or republicans or others etc

We should not trade freely with those who abuse human rights as they will just get stronger

We know from human history once those with alternative views are silenced the state just takes more power for itself and those it serves.

There is lots of evidence over modern and ancient times that fear has been used to generate political opinion that is not rational and this is then used to stop free speech

Please lets have free speech and tolerance - lets stand up for human rights everywhere and lets stop business from funding politicians.

Lets defend the right to peacefully have different opinions - let us defend others free speech and human rights as we would want to be defended.

That does not mean hate speech is OK but it does mean that reasonable and even extra-ordinary tolerance is a must in any civilized society.

If we abandon this ideal we will lose our humanity and when we lose that we lose almost everything that is good.
What do you consider hate speech? I feel this is a term that gets thrown around in our society but is rarely clearly defined. Many of us are not familiar with the social dynamics that have led to such sensitivity regarding particular words or manners of speaking. It seems worthy of a deeper conversation.
 

adam

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Jul 2, 2020
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What do you consider hate speech? I feel this is a term that gets thrown around in our society but is rarely clearly defined. Many of us are not familiar with the social dynamics that have led to such sensitivity regarding particular words or manners of speaking. It seems worthy of a deeper conversation.
Hate speech is something that a reasonable person would conclude is designed to promote or will likely result in violent action being taken against person or property. Speech degrading others that results in violence could also be hate speech. One off small scale violence as a result of a one off comment would not be hate speech. Repeatedly over time saying the same type of degrading speech would move towards or actually be hate speech. Purpose and intent or likely outcome all need to be factors in reaching a conclusion. However people who say they reacted violently towards comments they object to cannot justify violence on the basis of hate speech.

That would be a starting point
 

efarina96

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Hate speech is something that a reasonable person would conclude is designed to promote or will likely result in violent action being taken against person or property. Speech degrading others that results in violence could also be hate speech. One off small scale violence as a result of a one off comment would not be hate speech. Repeatedly over time saying the same type of degrading speech would move towards or actually be hate speech. Purpose and intent or likely outcome all need to be factors in reaching a conclusion. However people who say they reacted violently towards comments they object to cannot justify violence on the basis of hate speech.

That would be a starting point
While I respect your reasoning, I have a hard time agreeing with the definition you have provided, and the reason for me has to do with perception vs reality. We agree that hate speech cannot be used as a justification for violence. I always point to the example of men like John Lewis when I say there is no justification for violence, ever.
That being said, I believe our Netflix culture has given many people, particularly of the younger generations, the false impression that an individual's motivations can be easily derived from their words. Our stories tend to involve characters whose motivations are ultimately clear-cut, even if obscured by the dramatic fog of uncertainty for a brief time.
When I use a word that someone doesn't like, they tend not to take steps to clarify. Instead, they react viscerally. Their definition of what I am saying could be complety different from my intention, yet they internalize this and in turn cast my motivations in terms of the effect the word has on them- not in terms of how I meant it to be understood.
The lack of capacity to ask basic clarifying questions is a serious cultural failure that has contributed, in my view, to the tribalism and partisan vitriol that has come to dominate our politics and social lives. People feel like they can't talk to each other about anything serious because opposing views are often viewed near-instantly as hate speech. Thoughts?
 

adam

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The lack of capacity to ask basic clarifying questions is a serious cultural failure that has contributed, in my view, to the tribalism and partisan vitriol that has come to dominate our politics and social lives. People feel like they can't talk to each other about anything serious because opposing views are often viewed near-instantly as hate speech. Thoughts?
I agree with you

The courts need to be clear on supporting all free speech, and the media needs to be legally made to set out both sides of any subject they discuss as they used to be obliged to do.
 
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efarina96

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I agree with you

The courts need to be clear on supporting all free speech, and the media needs to be legally made to set out both sides of any subject they discuss as they used to be obliged to do.
I agree. We also need to restore a culture of unbiased examination of the truth.
For example, "The Five" on Fox News, could meet the criteria of laying out both sides of the issues. But every person on the panel is biased and the hosts can barely contain their contempt for the opinions of the only Democrat on the panel. I fear the culture surrounding the media of today is designed to leave people in an emotionally susceptible state so that they will be more vulnerable to CIA propaganda.
 

adam

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I agree. We also need to restore a culture of unbiased examination of the truth.
This is the key

the culture surrounding the media of today is designed to leave people in an emotionally susceptible state

I think this has always in history been the case.

Look at the sinking of the USS Maine in Cuba as a fake attack used to start the war with Spain; also the Gulf of Tonkin incident created to start the Vietnam War in the 1960s or the WMD used as an excuse to invade Iraq

These events are now known to be fake. How many fake events remain hidden in plain sight.

Getting into more recent times causes people to simply reject what is not promoted by the mainstream media. This is ironic as the media is even more controlled today and open to fake technology generated images than in the past
 
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efarina96

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This is the key




I think this has always in history been the case.

Look at the sinking of the USS Maine in Cuba as a fake attack used to start the war with Spain; also the Gulf of Tonkin incident created to start the Vietnam War in the 1960s or the WMD used as an excuse to invade Iraq

These events are now known to be fake. How many fake events remain hidden in plain sight.

Getting into more recent times causes people to simply reject what is not promoted by the mainstream media. This is ironic as the media is even more controlled today and open to fake technology generated images than in the past
The truth is made out to be madness, and madness is made out to be routine.
 

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